For instance, take a video store. In the US if I couldn't find a video, I could go to the counter of the most podunk store, and they could show me where it was quickly. They'd do a quick check to see if it was rented out, and if not, whisk me to the section. Without fail, there has ALWAYS been at least one person in a store who could do that -- either there are multiple employees and the person who knows shows me while the trainee staffs the register, or the sole employee is working in a small business and knows the store back to front.
In Japan, I go to my local Tsutaya, ask where a video is, they check on the computer, and then run off and browse the shelves just like I was doing before deciding to ask someone for help and then ask me questions like, "Which section do you think it would be in?" or nonsense like that. While they certainly top their American counterparts for politeness, they don't get the job done quicker or better. While that's great for tourists who truly appreciate great polite service for a while, the added time really starts to chip into your days when you go about you errands on a daily basis.
Another example would be ordering pizza over the telephone. They have a 30 second shpiel thanking you for calling, regardless of whether the phones are ringing off the hook and there's a 2 hour wait or not. You then have to go through your details (name, address, phone number) every time, even if it's already in your computer. Then you have to order, they double-check each segment, then double-check your order at the end. I call up knowing exactly what I want and it STILL takes 3 minutes.
Same thing with cashiers at the supermarket -- there will be a line of 20 people waiting, and the cashier takes her jolly sweet time with the niceties of each transaction, despite the fact that it slows everyone else down.
You need to wait in the video store line to return a movie, and then wait while they make sure it isn't overdue. Yet if you drop it off at night -- no problem! It's just a time waster, especially when all 3 cashiers are doing CDs, or new memberships, and you just want to drop off your video.
It's great that individual service is wonderful. Honestly. But when it comes to daily things, the novelty wears off quickly, and I'd rather efficiency then a train of Keigo before my day can progress.
The dedication isn't to the customer, and what the customer wants, it's to a manual which specifies the exact way to interact with customers. As a foreigner, sometimes we throw the whole thing off. For instance, when I first got to this country, I couldn't understand keigo well at all, so when asking for directions from a JR station attendant, I'd ask if she could please explain it in non-keigo Japanese, and she couldn't -- against the rules and all, screw what the customer actually needs!
The service is 建前【たてまえ】 (tatemae) rather than honest service. And while, again, the appearance is of dedication to the job and position, it's really just going through the motions without the heart behind it. In Japan, those fake smiles are so groomed. While it's nicer than a depressed teenager filled with angst ringing up your supermarket purchase, it still doesn't qualify as 'good service' in my mind.
I think of things like waiters in restaurants. In Japan, across the board, they are all polite. I have only gotten truly horrendous service once or twice while here. In the US or Europe, I have gotten some REALLY poor service, but on the flipside, the good service is TREMENDOUS! It makes a huge difference to the atmosphere of a restaurant, and I find myself going back to places with great service, even if the food isn't better than a comparable place with poor service.
I think of Japan as a middle-ground, where things are generally above average in quality, but the truly exceptional is very hard to find. It's like Japanese food -- the differences between good sushi and bad sushi are subtle, when you compare it to a cheap steak and a prime cut of filet mignon.
So the dedication, too, I think is feigned. And it's feigned well, but I'll settle for truly great service and being able to choose it, rather than across the board good service, without much variation.
I am not gay in the first place. :okashii:
I will not comment on the pizza places since I rarely eat pizza out. (I can make a better pizza at home and usually cheaper!)
Do you actually have a coal-fired brick pizza oven at home ? :eek:
He was very appreciative, as this is a new store (Hot Spar) and is in a location to attract a lot of business from Westerners (mainly Americans).
When I saw the name "Spar", I immediately thought of the Dutch company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPAR). I checked it on the web, and indeed Super Hot Hot Spar (http://www.hotsparcvs.co.jp/main.html) :giggle: seems to be a Japanese subsidiary.
I can't speak for Japanese speakers, but I've never used honorific speech with a JR attendant, or even had it suggested that it was more appropriate, and never received a response in anything but "desu, masu" level standard Japanese.
The video shops where I've been in Tokyo had about 1/3 of anime and Japanese movies, 1/3 of Hollywood (and a few European) movies, and 1/3 of adult. I mostly rented movies in my first 2 years in Japan, but I also experienced (e.g. at Bellwood) that the staff had no idea where the movies were, and were a bit at a loss when my wife or I asked if they had such or such movie (not where it was, but just if they had it). The guy had to call his supervisor to check on the computer ! How do they recruit people who can't make a simple search on on PC ?
And you know what? I never had my order screwed up in Japan, whereas in Canada (and I'm sure in the states too) it gets screwed up all the time. I also never had a 2 hour wait for pizza, maybe 45 minutes was the longest I ever had to wait.
I think there is no point arguing here. Each of us can only compare to what they have been used to where they have lived before. I wouldn't complain about the pizza, because I had never ordered a home-delivery pizza before coming to Japan. In Belgium for instance, Italian restaurants usually cater for all the take-aways (Pizza Hut has a hard time to stay in some countries), and people usually go directly to the local Pizzeria by car. So you never have to wait for even 45 min, it's cheaper, healthier and tastes better than in Japan. I was just confirming, as Pierrot le Fou said, that the Pizza-la staff confirm and reconfirmed the address and order, which took an unnecessarily long time.
Again, I don't know where you've been doing your shopping but this was never a problem for me. They might have made a greeting and said thank you, which probably added a fraction of a second to the transaction, but its stretching things a huge amount to say that this "slows everyone down."
At my local supermarket, it depends on the employee (so it's probably not an absolute rule), but some do say the name and price of every single item they scan. This is not even what slows things down. The bothering thing is how slow the Visa card machine is. Even my wife complains about it, after seeing how fast it is in Europe. In addition to the machine being slow, they have to sign and stamp their hanko on each of the 3 receipts !
Service can be quite different from one supermarket to the other though. In some (more upmarket ones) there is a second person that put your goods directly into the bags. But that's a rare case. At the place I usually go to, there are no trolleys/shopping carts, just plastic baskets, which customers place directly on the counter. The cashier then take each item and place it in another basket, because there is not enough space for putting them into bags at the counter itself. As they take great care to place each item properly in the other basket, and we still have to put them into plastic bags afterwards, it takes twice longer than the system I have been used to elsewhere.
So, I understand when Pierrot le Fou says that the Japanese want to give the image of working hard and being polite, but that makes it less efficient. I do not get more satisfaction as a customer because they name each item, then place it on another basket, then have to take out the card machine from under their counter because there is not enough space on it, then wait 10sec for the transaction, then 10 sec more for the staff to sign the 3 receipts. They do work more and do it with great care and diligence, but that's only wasted time and energy.
I guess it also depends on one's approach to time. I am the kind of person that intuitively thinks which ones of the cereals, milk carton, bowl and empty yoghurts I should take in each hand to be able to put them into the shelves/fridge/sink/bin so as to maximise my time, in accordance with the location of the shelves/fridge/sink/bin. So you can understand that the useless and time-consumming cashier routine described above annoys me.
Have you never worked in the service industry? Get any service related job with a big company in the states and 9 times out of 10 they'll have a manual with exact words for you to use in any given situation. I remember as a teenager working for a Shell station and getting ripped by my boss whenever I deviated ever so slightly from the script (ie saying "would you like anything else?" Instead of "Would you like any oil or lottery tickets?"). That isn't some sort of unique Japanese phenomenah you know.
Again, it depends where you come from. I have never heard someone repeat some manual phrases in Europe, except at US chains like McDonalds. So, it's mostly an American and Japanese phenomenon. Generally in Europe, if the staff of a non fast food restaurant treated you like that, nobody would come back there, because it's too "impersonal" and thus is not considered "good service".
Ever occur to you that the western custom of tipping servers, giving them a financial incentive to provide tremendous service, is the explanation for the difference rather than some sort of Japanese ethical deficiency?
Western custom of tipping ? I have never tipped someone except when I went to Hawaii 2 years ago because I had not (they insited that tips were not included, as I was used to in Europe). In fact, in most European countries, VAT (consumption tax) and service are both included in restaurants. At best you'd tip taxi drivers, but I never take the taxi, so I am not quite sure.
In Japan, in Kyoto where I live, video employees do not make minimum wage (they make 700-800 yen an hour to start according to the help wanted posters, depending on the hours they work). Furthermore, considering that there are 30 foreigners living in a Nova apartment right across from the Tsutaya, there are certainly plenty of people getting English videos as English stickers. The English video section is also the most frequented portion of the videos (the CDs are marginally more popular).
If I'm not mistaken the minimum wage in Japan IS in the 700-800 yen per hour wage so they are in fact minimum wage earners. Most video chains in Canada (which are the same as in the states) also pay their new employees minimum wage or something very close to it. The bottom line is that these people (in Japan and America) aren't 'professionals', they are cheap expendable labor and very few of them give a crap about their jobs and its really hard to blame them.
Its a pretty big stretch to say that because there are a few NOVA employees living next door the Tsutaya employees should know about English videos. I currently live in a section of Winnipeg that has a lot of Chinese immigrants but I would hardly expect the local Blockbuster employees to know anything about Chinese films just because of that.
But again, perhaps I'm just unlucky there. Perhaps in this magical world of Japan I have managed to hit the most incompetent workers when I need help, when in the US I've just gotten immensely lucky. I suppose it is possible. But over a length of time (2.5 years here, 22 in the US), I would think that the law of averages would dictate that my 'luck' would average out. Anything's possible of course, but...
Perhaps your standards are unreasonably high. I spent over five years in Japan and cannot think of a single occasion on which I had cause to complain about any service I recieved at a store or restaurant.
denwa arigato gozaimasu, pizza hatto no
"Hello, Dominoe's pizza, how can I help you? Uh-Huh. Can I have your name and phone number please? Are you still at-----? OK, OK, OK. Would you like anything to drink with that? I see, will that be everything then? It'll be there in about 30 minutes, thank you very much!"
This is roughly what was said to me last week when I ordered pizza, sounds like pretty much the exact same thing. Besides, even if it does take longer what is the big deal? It takes 2 minutes instead of 1 minute and 30 seconds to place an order? It may (though I do not at all believe it does) result in some inefficiencies for the pizza place, but I don't see any remotely conceivable way in which taking a few seconds to be polite and accurate on the phone inconveniences the customer.
Please, come to my local izumiya. There will be people standing selling 'my basket's at a counter with nobody there, while 2 registers are closed, and the entire front of the store is filled with people in lines for the registers. Rather than trying to go quickly through the line, they will still announce individual prices for items, ask people if they need extra bags, and a slew of other nonsense rather than just trying to get to the next person in line. It does slow people down.
That might be a problem with your local Izumiya. I shopped at a lot of big supermarkets (Daiei, MaxValue, Jusco, Seibu, Co-op etc etc.) and found them to be no less efficient at getting me through the check out than the Superstore or Safeway here in Winnipeg are.
Every one of these complaints is 'minor' in the sense that they aren't going to kill me, but are annoyances. When people try to claim the superiority of the Japanese service industry, I complain about things like this, because despite being 'minor' they are valid complaints that I have that I didn't in the US. If we were to toss out every 'minor' complaint, then living in any country would be more or less equivalent unless ruled with an iron fist by draconian laws and a dictator.
I wouldn't argue that Japanese service is superior to everyone else. But I would say that pretty much all the complaints you've made against Japanese service here are either equally applicable to service found elsewhere or just too pitifully insignificant to warrant mentioning.
Yes. I worked in a coffee shop for 6 years thanks. And if manuals were followed as strictly as they are in Japan, I would hear the same shpiel in every Starbucks worldwide, and would get the same dumbfounded looks when I ordered a 'medium' coffee in the US.
Here I go into a starbucks, order a 'medium' coffee, and they ask me if I want a 'grande' which is the medium, I say yes, and then they confirm by asking me if I want a grande 'm-size' coffee. Irony being that's what I asked for in the first place.
I don't go to Starbuck's, but what you've described sounds like what has happened to me in dozens of chain stores in North America. And there are plenty of Japanese stores and restaurants, including some chains, that buck that trend. Ever been to Freshness Burger?
It ain't uniquely Japanese to have a script, but it is quite Japanese to defer to the script regardless of customer desires.
I just don't see it. Perhaps the employees might hesitate a bit because they are less used to recieving special requests, but once they understand what you are asking for I found most servers in Japan to be quite willing to comply with my requests even if they fell outside the usual paramaters. Not always, but usually.
Because it has happened far more than once to me. And it wasn't a matter of 'broken Japanese' as I managed to get her to give the instructions in keigo just fine, it was a matter of not getting her to give them in a way I could understand them properly. I interpret it in the 'least favorable' light (which isn't even least favorable -- I could have assumed she was rude, after all), because it's the most likely explanation. It certainly isn't that she was incapable of speaking standard Japanese after all...
Well I've never had any problem with JR people. And you have to remember that Keigo IS a part of standard Japanese. It seems to me far more likely that she was having difficulty understanding the linguistic implications of your request than just stubbornly insisting on following official JR protocol. When I used to watch new English teachers in Japan speaking to students I would be surprised at the complicated grammatical structures they would use with low level students. It generally takes a couple months for newbies to learn to 'dumb down' their English to make it understandable to low level students, despite the fact that they have been told repeatedly not to use difficult grammar. You seem to assume that people have an inherent knowledge of the aspects of their language which non-native speakers find difficult. Even if you are saying "don't use Keigo" it is very unlikely that it would just "click" with most people what the problem was and they would instantly start speaking in simplified (which in this case also has the double aspect of being considered rude to use when speaking to a customer) Japanese that you can understand.
No, you're right, it isn't any more 'real,' but it also hasn't been the focus of coaching and special practice, and as much of a scripted part of the transaction as everything else. Most kids at Burger King don't smile, so if one does, even as a nicety, that makes it more sincere to me because it's a personal choice.
Are you sure you aren't just looking for things to complain about here? This just sounds like the weakest complaint I've ever heard, you actually want them to frown more because at least it would be authentic? Give them a break!!!
Quite the assumption.
No sushi afficionada would ever say that there was barely any difference between bad and good sushi.
my life is a picnic compared to you guys
pizza hut already knows who i am when i call because of some caller recognition software
i tell them my name and they confirm my address
i did have some trouble getting extra bbq sauce for my chikichiki one day but they gave it to me
they always tell thisll be the last time though
as for videos service is good in the drop what they are doing and go get it section
occasionally they have to check the special promotion section
as for living here..i cant see why anybody would have trouble..except perhaps a vegetarian/vegan
it was as easy as pie and i had never lived in an asian country b4
in fact had only spent two days in bangkok as a stopover
had eaten sushi twice before i arrived
of course i have to admit, i did have some troubles but nothing to write home about
if you think living in japan in difficult youre soft
and btw there is no reason to swallow your pride unless its misplaced
i go home everynight with my soul intact and if my working environment doesnt allow that ill change it
This is sort of my point of view too. Not much sense in arguing about it. In my experience, not many of the arguments made here against Japanese service hold much water, nor can they be said to be indicative of some sort of social phenomenah unique (and problematic) to Japan.
Western custom of tipping ? I have never tipped someone except when I went to Hawaii 2 years ago because I had not (they insited that tips were not included, as I was used to in Europe). In fact, in most European countries, VAT (consumption tax) and service are both included in restaurants. At best you'd tip taxi drivers, but I never take the taxi, so I am not quite sure.
Right, north American servers, not western in general. My bad.
Of course here in the US fast and efficient procedures are usually synonymous with "impersonal," (and at least the apparence of them in Japan, with a half smile) but in Europe you're saying non-conformist or quirky greetings tend to be the factor that gives an impression of "warmth" or "personability" and resonates the most with customers ?
The only serious service problem I've ever had in Japan was ordering a washibako in a Tokyo department store. After spending several minutes
going through and choosing a color and size specifications with the clerk in very clear and standard Japanese, I turned away to wait -- fully expecting my selection was being prepared. Much to my surprise, beginning to get restive at the delay, 15-20 minutes later I inquire again and almost unimaginably, she hasn't yet started but is waiting for ME to reconfirm the correctness of the piece we had already discussed and clarified multiple times over initially !!! Which of course I did and it was handled very expediently from that point to a beautiful "kajo hoso" wrapping.
In all likelihood that wasn't the real, or at least only, reason....it just struck me as odd since asking a customer to wait is a perfectly acceptable business request. :okashii:
And the keigo I was referring to was sonkeigo and kenjogo, not just masu/desu forms of regular words. I havehad no problem with someone saying, "tabetekudasai," but I certainly had trouble understanding someone who said, "meshiagare!"
Furthermore, you're still being passive aggressive at the least with your intentional flummoxing of my name. 'fluffy hamster?' 'pierre la fou?' You're also being condescending and patronizing in suggesting that these things wouldn't bother me if I lived here another 2-3 years. The faulty assumption being that length of time determines tolerance, rather than tolerance determining length of time stayed.
Have you ever considered that perhaps people who can tolerate these things better are the people who end up staying 5-6 years? Have you ever pondered that perhaps the reason that I don't tolerate this stuff is not because I have only been here for 2 years, but rather beacuse I find these things annoying? It's incredibly obnoxious and codescending to make all the assumptions you're making based on your experience, and assuming that they pan out to the entirety of the population.
I love how you tell me "Of course there are legitimate and illegitmate gripes about Japan, that isn't the issue." right after having told me "You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them." is a true statement. That makes it about legitimate and illegitimate gripes if the issue you have is with my gripes not being legitimate. You're contradicting yourself AGAIN on the issue.
I am also of the opinion that you wouldn't know the difference between a kaiten-sushi chef and a master sushi chef's sushi were they given the same quality fish to work with. But I suppose we'll never get a chance to check, now will we?
I look forward to more pretentious rhetoric and intentionally mucking up my name in your response.
I manage to live my day to day life just dandy, despite those annoyances. Thankfully the joys of liquor keep me sane.
And the keigo I was referring to was sonkeigo and kenjogo, not just masu/desu forms of regular words. I havehad no problem with someone saying, "tabetekudasai," but I certainly had trouble understanding someone who said, "meshiagare!"
Like I said, I have no idea what your Japanese level is and it honestly was not my intention to insult you. It isn't really at issue anyway, as all I was saying is that the JR employee couldn't reasonably be expected to instinctively be able to accomodate herself to your level of Japanese in the few moments your conversation must have lasted. Its just not something people are used to doing, and I only offered it up as a possible alternate explanation to your view that she did so out of a stubborn adherence to the rules.
Furthermore, you're still being passive aggressive at the least with your intentional flummoxing of my name. 'fluffy hamster?' 'pierre la fou?'
I'm not intentionally flumoxing your name (though I'll be careful to get it right from now on). To be honest after first glancing at it I somehow misread 'pierrot' as "Pierre". I later realized my mistake and added an 'O' to the end, though it isn't an easy name to spell and to be honest I just couldn't be bothered to go and check each time I typed it in. I didn't think it would cause any offence, though if it did I apologize. I accidentally called you 'fluffy hamster' because at the time I wrote the reply I was simultaneously having a conversation on Dave's ESL cafe with a poster named fluffy hamster and I got the two of you confused. It wasn't an intentional insult and I apologize for the confusion.
You're also being condescending and patronizing in suggesting that these things wouldn't bother me if I lived here another 2-3 years. The faulty assumption being that length of time determines tolerance, rather than tolerance determining length of time stayed.
I'm not trying to be patronizing or condescending here, I'm just telling you what my own experience was. If you look back at my older threads from 2002 or 2003 I was always bitching about Japan in one way or another. The last couple years of my stay though my views changed and I made peace with all of the little nuisances of life there. Now that I'm back in Canada and I miss Japan alot I can't help b
I never said you have no standards. You said there was little difference between good and bad sushi and I said that someone who knows good sushi would never say that. I think my comments may have come off harsher than I intended them to, sorry.
...before telling me that I have high standards (in regards to the service industry).
You are complaining about the most ridiculous things here (ie people not meaning it when they smile at you), so I think the facts back up my assertion, in so far as they have been presented here. There is no inconsistency with my remark about your taste in sushi.
You suggest that bad Japanese service doesn't exist in the same breath as stating that because they're paid such a low wage and don't care about their job, you can't really blame them for the job they do.
I never said bad Japanese service doesn't exist, I said that I have never had cause to complain myself, which is an objective fact. I have had bad service in Japan, but only in cases (ie fast food restaurants) where one expects bad service, therefore it really wouldn't have made much sense for me to complain. You on the other hand seem to have unreasonably high expectations of your Tsutaya employees, blasting them for not being able to quickly find the movie you could not find yourself. Even that really shouldn't count as bad service, as from your own account they went out of their way to try to help you, though they were apparently unsuccesful.
You seem to be of the belief that there are 'legitimate' gripes about Japan, and 'illegitimate' gripes about Japan.
Of course there are legitimate and illegitmate gripes about Japan, that isn't the issue.
You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them.
This is true and I'll tell you why. I used to make the exact same complaints (or similar complaints) during my first couple of years in Japan. I used to let stupid little things bother me simply because they weren't what I was used to back home. But after a while I realized I was letting these non-issues interfere with my enjoyment of life in Japan and I just learned to accept them. Japan is the way it is and there isn't much point in bitching about the small stuff because it isn't going to change. Instead of spending time analyzing all the little faults and trying to come up with over-arching theories about what these irritants said about Japanese society I realized it wasn't worth the bother and in fact was quite demeaning to Japanese people and I should just start concentrating on the things I like. I guaruntee you that if you spend another couple of years in Japan you will look back and wonder how you ever let this stuff bother you.
Fortunately, you aren't me, and I'm not you. We have different ideas of what is a pain in the arse and what's not. I find these things to be frustrating, as they are daily annoyances that take more effort to correct, then just bear and roll with. And it's frustrating when there are things that can only be fixed with more effort than it takes to endure them.
Its frustrating but it really doesn't need to be. Most of the things you've described sound like really trivial matters that you oughtn't let bother you. "When in Rome...."
And I was pointing out places where I didn't believe that the service sector was leaps and bounds beyond what it is here. I was pointing out that the value of customer-based service just isn't as great as people comment on, with a slew of examples.
This is probably true. The actual service you recieve isn't much different from other countries quality wise. The lack of smart ass clerks is a definite benefit though.
How this turned into you insulting my ability to communicate my desires in Japanese, well, that beats the Hell out of me.
I didn't mean to insult your Japanese, you said you couldn't understand Keigo so I assumed you weren't fluent. I used to have tons of problems making myself understood in Japanese...obviously I have no idea what your Japanese level is like so please don't take what I wrote the wrong way.
Japanese service is not perfect. Full-stop.
agreed.
The preceeding were examples of how it is not perfect. You can say that they're minor, or say that I have high standards, or throw any other insult my way for the sake of defending things that annoy me, yet it doesn't change the fact that these things do happen, and do annoy me, and no matter how minor show a side of the service industry that tourists and the like don't see. Annoying little daily holdups which make your life a little more frustrating.
Hey, please don't take what I wrote as an insult. I seem to have jumped in mid-conversation and not have appreciated the context in which you were making the comments. I just read your one post in which it seemed you were unfairly trashing the Japanese and their work ethic, so I thought I'd take you to task for it. But looking back over the whole thread I see that in the context your comments weren't really as harsh as I had originally thought them to be, so if I've come across as too aggressive I apologize.
Whether it was blockbuster, Hollywood video, or my local video store in the states (Boston), the job was neither minimum wage, nor did I ever have trouble finding a video. I had no trouble finding a relatively artsy film like 'Croupier' even in Hollywood video. Perhaps I'm just lucky?
In Japan, in Kyoto where I live, video employees do not make minimum wage (they make 700-800 yen an hour to start according to the help wanted posters, depending on the hours they work). Furthermore, considering that there are 30 foreigners living in a Nova apartment right across from the Tsutaya, there are certainly plenty of people getting English videos as English stickers. The English video section is also the most frequented portion of the videos (the CDs are marginally more popular).
But again, perhaps I'm just unlucky there. Perhaps in this magical world of Japan I have managed to hit the most incompetent workers when I need help, when in the US I've just gotten immensely lucky. I suppose it is possible. But over a length of time (2.5 years here, 22 in the US), I would think that the law of averages would dictate that my 'luck' would average out. Anything's possible of course, but...
Don't know where you've been ordering pizza, but in my time there I ordered a fair bit from a fair number of places and never had any problem with the way they handled it. The greetings were never anywhere near 30 seconds. And yes, they double check your info and order which maybe takes 30 seconds. And you know what? I never had my order screwed up in Japan, whereas in Canada (and I'm sure in the states too) it gets screwed up all the time. I also never had a 2 hour wait for pizza, maybe 45 minutes was the longest I ever had to wait.
Same experience with Pizza Hut, Dominos, AND Chicago Pizza. I've tried telling them that my name should be enough, and that works with one employee at my local Pizza Hut, but otherwise falls flat and I have to tell them my address anyway.
I have also been told that the wait on Pizza was 2 hours before on a busy night.
denwa arigato gozaimasu, pizza hatto no
Yes, 30 seconds is an exaggeration, but filling in those details takes time, then ordering takes time, and they do repeat everything after I say it, then repeat it all at the end.
Then we have the coupon shpiel, the discussion of the total, the asking if there's anything 'ijoo' if the wait is 'yoroshiidesuka' followed by the goodbye talk. It takes over 2 minutes on average to order a single pizza without custom toppings or anything.
Again, I don't know where you've been doing your shopping but this was never a problem for me. They might have made a greeting and said thank you, which probably added a fraction of a second to the transaction, but its stretching things a huge amount to say that this "slows everyone down."
Please, come to my local izumiya. There will be people standing selling 'my basket's at a counter with nobody there, while 2 registers are closed, and the entire front of the store is filled with people in lines for the registers. Rather than trying to go quickly through the line, they will still announce individual prices for items, ask people if they need extra bags, and a slew of other nonsense rather than just trying to get to the next person in line. It does slow people down.
I never understood why they make people do that either, but it seems like an incredibly minor thing to be making an issue of.
Every one of these complaints is 'minor' in the sense that they aren't going to kill me, but are annoyances. When people try to claim the superiority of the Japanese service industry, I complain about things like this, because despite being 'minor' they are valid complaints that I have that I didn't in the US. If we were to toss out every 'minor' complaint, then living in any country would be more or less equivalent unless ruled with an iron fist by draconian laws and a dictator.
Have you never worked in the service industry? Get any service related job with a big company in the states and 9 times out of 10 they'll have a manual with exact words for you to use in any given situation. I remember as a teenager working for a Shell station and getting ripped by my boss whenever I deviated ever so slightly from the script (ie saying "would you like anything else?" Instead of "Would you like any oil or lottery tickets?"). That isn't some sort of unique Japanese phenomenah you know.
Yes. I worked in a coffee shop for 6 years thanks. And if manuals were followed as strictly as they are in Japan, I would hear the same shpiel in every Starbucks worldwide, and would get the same dumbfounded looks when I ordered a 'medium' coffee in the US.
Here I go into a starbucks, order a 'medium' coffee, and they ask me if I want a 'grande' which is the medium, I say yes, and then they confirm by asking me if I want a grande 'm-size' coffee. Irony being that's what I asked for in the first place.
It ain't uniquely Japanese to have a script, but it is quite Japanese to defer to the script regardless of customer desires.
And how the hell do you know that it was because of some rules that the JR employee couldn't give you directions? Maybe she just couldn't understand your broken Japanese, or perhaps you were asking her to do something she was uncomfortable with and she simply didn't want to be rude. Why do you have to interpret that in the least favorable light?
Because it has happened far more than once to me. And it wasn't a matter of 'broken Japanese' as I managed to get her to give the instructions in keigo just fine, it was a matter of not getting her to give them in a way I could understand them properly. I interpret it in the 'least favorable' light (which isn't even least favorable -- I could have assumed she was rude, after all), because it's the most likely explanation. It certainly isn't that she was incapable of speaking standard Japanese after all...
What and the smile I get from the kid at a Burger King in Seattle is somehow more real and sincere? What planet are you from that you think fake smiles are a Japanese thing?
No, you're right, it isn't any more 'real,' but it also hasn't been the focus of coaching and special practice, and as much of a scripted part of the transaction as everything else. Most kids at Burger King don't smile, so if one does, even as a nicety, that makes it more sincere to me because it's a personal choice.
Ever occur to you that the western custom of tipping servers, giving them a financial incentive to provide tremendous service, is the explanation for the difference rather than some sort of Japanese ethical deficiency? To me the fact that the Japanese staff work their asses off and give me fake smiles knowing that it won't make them any more money is a GOOD aspect of their character, as opposed to Western servers who do so for more or less greedy reasons rather than a devotion to their work.
Yes, I'm sure that has something to do with it. But if Japanese service was truly going to work their asses off without tips, then tips wouldn't be able to make the service better, now would it? How good is the service if they don't excel at their jobs without that extra financial incentive? The flipside to not receiving tips is that there is no penalty for half-assing their politeness either, as that won't reduce their take on the day at all.
The people in the service industry I know here love the idea of tips, and really think it would be great to have in Japan because of the amount of mediocre service you can get here.
Spoken like someone who obviously wouldn't know a good plate of sushi if it hit him in the face.
Quite the assumption.
You seem to be of the belief that there are 'legitimate' gripes about Japan, and 'illegitimate' gripes about Japan. You seem to think that because these things aren't real inconveniences by your standards, it's foolish of me to complain about them. Fortunately, you aren't me, and I'm not you. We have different ideas of what is a pain in the arse and what's not. I find these things to be frustrating, as they are daily annoyances that take more effort to correct, then just bear and roll with. And it's frustrating when there are things that can only be fixed with more effort than it takes to endure them.
If it takes a one minute explanation to save myself thirty seconds of delay due to procedure, then I'm still losing 30 seconds over what I would usually lose, which is 30 seconds. Yes, it's worth it at stores I go to all the time which are small enough to have people . Unfortunately that is a minority of the service workers I deal with daily.
I was referring to a simple comment with my original post on the service sector:
I'm not talking about the actual value of the work (or lack thereof) the average Japanese does at a job, but the dedication (even if it's b/c they have no choice) is much higher, and in customer-based businesses the service is leaps and bounds above anything here.
And I was pointing out places where I didn't believe that the service sector was leaps and bounds beyond what it is here. I was pointing out that the value of customer-based service just isn't as great as people comment on, with a slew of examples.
How this turned into you insulting my ability to communicate my desires in Japanese, well, that beats the Hell out of me.
Japanese service is not perfect. Full-stop.
The preceeding were examples of how it is not perfect. You can say that they're minor, or say that I have high standards, or throw any other insult my way for the sake of defending things that annoy me, yet it doesn't change the fact that these things do happen, and do annoy me, and no matter how minor show a side of the service industry that tourists and the like don't see. Annoying little daily holdups which make your life a little more frustrating.
And I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, no matter how much you want to paint me as a freak for believing that it is actually possible to get bad customer service in Japan.
But as you said, they receive such low wages we can't blame them, right? But we can in other countries?
Right, but I regularly go to retail, and I'm the one that sasy "hello" and "thanks" to the person at the register. That, my friend, is backwards. In Japan, even if it's copmletely insincere, I'll always get an "irashaimase". I think in the states (mainland) it's a mixed bag. There are places with good service, and some places with bad. Hawaii leans more towards the bad. Japan's is pretty static. The serivce you get is almost the same everywhere.
In Japan, I go to my local Tsutaya, ask where a video is, they check on the computer, and then run off and browse the shelves just like I was doing before deciding to ask someone for help and then ask me questions like
Odd. They usually drop what they're doing right there and guide me to the video in question.
You then have to go through your details (name, address, phone number) every time, even if it's already in your computer.
Where are you ordering pizza from? As a VIP of the Domino's in Ikejiri for a good 2 or 3 years, I can tell you that that is not the norm. I call, get about 5 second spiel, then they ask my phone number. I tell them, and they confirm my address (which is the way Dominos and most pizza joiints do it across the board).
I see your point, and in fact, I would've agreed with you to an extent about 2-3 years into my stay. Then you come back to the US (or at least halfway) and have to beg to get any help. My one complaint I stuck with was at Tokyuu Hands. They had 2 maybe 3 old oyaji working each floor, with about 200 customers. I was at Home Depot yesterday. The section I was in had one other customer, but the guy working the floor was nowhere to be found. Then again, people are famous for being lazy here.
In Japan, I go to my local Tsutaya, ask where a video is, they check on the computer, and then run off and browse the shelves just like I was doing before deciding to ask someone for help and then ask me questions like, "Which section do you think it would be in?" or nonsense like that. While they certainly top their American counterparts for politeness, they don't get the job done quicker or better. While that's great for tourists who truly appreciate great polite service for a while, the added time really starts to chip into your days when you go about you errands on a daily basis.
I have to disagree with this for a number of obvious reasons. For one thing Tsutaya is a massive chain that hires part timers for minimum wage, so obviously you can't expect them to have a huge amount of knowledge. You go to a Blockbuster or wherever in the states and you'll find the same thing. Go to a small privately owned video shop in Japan and you'll find people with the more knowledge because they are in more close contact with the merchandise. You also have to consider that, if you were renting an English language movie, that section only represents a small amount of their actual business. The anime, Japanese film, adult film and CD rental sections probably represent 80 or 90% of their stock -which depending on the location can be quite large. Asking them for some obscure foreign film that even you can't find and then using their inability to instantly find it for you as a basis for criticizing the entire work ethic of the Japanese is just incredibly lame.
Another example would be ordering pizza over the telephone. They have a 30 second shpiel thanking you for calling, regardless of whether the phones are ringing off the hook and there's a 2 hour wait or not. You then have to go through your details (name, address, phone number) every time, even if it's already in your computer. Then you have to order, they double-check each segment, then double-check your order at the end. I call up knowing exactly what I want and it STILL takes 3 minutes.
Don't know where you've been ordering pizza, but in my time there I ordered a fair bit from a fair number of places and never had any problem with the way they handled it. The greetings were never anywhere near 30 seconds. And yes, they double check your info and order which maybe takes 30 seconds. And you know what? I never had my order screwed up in Japan, whereas in Canada (and I'm sure in the states too) it gets screwed up all the time. I also never had a 2 hour wait for pizza, maybe 45 minutes was the longest I ever had to wait.
Same thing with cashiers at the supermarket -- there will be a line of 20 people waiting, and the cashier takes her jolly sweet time with the niceties of each transaction, despite the fact that it slows everyone else down.
Again, I don't know where you've been doing your shopping but this was never a problem for me. They might have made a greeting and said thank you, which probably added a fraction of a second to the transaction, but its stretching things a huge amount to say that this "slows everyone down."
You need to wait in the video store line to return a movie, and then wait while they make sure it isn't overdue. Yet if you drop it off at night -- no problem! It's just a time waster, especially when all 3 cashiers are doing CDs, or new memberships, and you just want to drop off your video.
I never understood why they make people do that either, but it seems like an incredibly minor thing to be making an issue of.
The dedication isn't to the customer, and what the customer wants, it's to a manual which specifies the exact way to interact with customers. As a foreigner, sometimes we throw the whole thing off. For instance, when I first got to this country, I couldn't understand keigo well at all, so when asking for directions from a JR station attendant, I'd ask if she could please explain it in non-keigo Japanese, and she couldn't -- against the rules and all, screw what the customer actually needs!
Have you never worked in the service industry? Get any service related job with a big company in the states and 9 times out of 10 they'll have a manual with exact words for you to use in any given situation. I remember as a teenager working for a Shell station and getting ripped by my boss whenever I deviated ever so slightly from the script (ie saying "would you like anything else?" Instead of "Would you like any oil or lottery tickets?"). That isn't some sort of unique Japanese phenomenah you know.
And how the hell do you know that it was because of some rules that the JR employee couldn't give you directions? Maybe she just couldn't understand your broken Japanese, or perhaps you were asking her to do something she was uncomfortable with and she simply didn't want to be rude. Why do you have to interpret that in the least favorable light?
The service is 建前【たてまえ】 (tatemae) rather than honest service. And while, again, the appearance is of dedication to the job and position, it's really just going through the motions without the heart behind it. In Japan, those fake smiles are so groomed.
What and the smile I get from the kid at a Burger King in Seattle is somehow more real and sincere? What planet are you from that you think fake smiles are a Japanese thing?
I think of things like waiters in restaurants. In Japan, across the board, they are all polite. I have only gotten truly horrendous service once or twice while here. In the US or Europe, I have gotten some REALLY poor service, but on the flipside, the good service is TREMENDOUS! It makes a huge difference to the atmosphere of a restaurant, and I find myself going back to places with great service, even if the food isn't better than a comparable place with poor service.
Ever occur to you that the western custom of tipping servers, giving them a financial incentive to provide tremendous service, is the explanation for the difference rather than some sort of Japanese ethical deficiency? To me the fact that the Japanese staff work their asses off and give me fake smiles knowing that it won't make them any more money is a GOOD aspect of their character, as opposed to Western servers who do so for more or less greedy reasons rather than a devotion to their work.
I think of Japan as a middle-ground, where things are generally above average in quality, but the truly exceptional is very hard to find. It's like Japanese food -- the differences between good sushi and bad sushi are subtle, when you compare it to a cheap steak and a prime cut of filet mignon.
Spoken like someone who obviously wouldn't know a good plate of sushi if it hit him in the face.
I agree. I have had similar experiences. While it is true that Japanese service is almost always polite, their competence in their job, especially the part-time type like video shops, restaurants, combinis, etc. often leaves a lo to be desired. It happened to me a few times to go to a combini and ask to use the fax machine and the staff had no idea how to operate it. Once, I said I wanted to send a fax abroad in a FamilyMart and was told that it was not possible, that it only worked inside Japan. Yet, I had sent a fax abroad from the same combini a few weeks before. I just walked out and went to the next combini.
When my sister (who is a vegetarian) came to Japan, we asked a some restaurants or fast-food places whether we could have a dish without the meat. Some did it without problems, but other just replied it was not possible because it was not in the rules or something to that effect. In an ome-rice chain, we were even told that the chef could but didn't want to serve an ome-rice without bacon, as it wouldn't taste as good and he didn't want to serve something that is not good. Remember that it was just a (fast-food) chain ! (this one actually (http://www.pomunoki.com/)) Talk about customer service !
Another example would be ordering pizza over the telephone. They have a 30 second shpiel thanking you for calling, regardless of whether the phones are ringing off the hook and there's a 2 hour wait or not. You then have to go through your details (name, address, phone number) every time, even if it's already in your computer. Then you have to order, they double-check each segment, then double-check your order at the end. I call up knowing exactly what I want and it STILL takes 3 minutes.
I have only ordered pizze from Pizza-la, and it was indeed like that.
As a foreigner, sometimes we throw the whole thing off. For instance, when I first got to this country, I couldn't understand keigo well at all, so when asking for directions from a JR station attendant, I'd ask if she could please explain it in non-keigo Japanese, and she couldn't -- against the rules and all, screw what the customer actually needs!
Don't ever ask a Japanese employee to do something that is against the rules ! :relief: They'd rather apologise one thousand times in keigo, like perfect little robots, than do something that is not in the book. They have no initiative and reject responsibilities. That's probably due to a lack of critical thinking. This also shows the limits of the quality of service in Japan. It's all very superficial. There is nothing more annoying that hearing bored and automated "Irasshaimase" every time you pass in front of a combini, supermarket or fast-food restaurant staff.
It really gets on my nerves when the same person tells me 3 or 4 times that same "Irasshaimase" within a few minutes, as if they cared so little about your presence that they had already forgotten that they had just greeted you. As a clearly distinguishible Westerner, that's all the more surprising. I was told that the "irasshaimase" in shops really meant "I am watching you" and is a way to prevent thefts. That's probably true as I can't believe that anyone with a sound mind would repeat incessantly the same greeting to the same person in just a few minutes' time. If that is the truth behind the overflowing Japanese politeness, then it is not only superficial and hypocritcial, it is downright unpleasant.
I think it's a matter of personal sensitivity. I understand both your side and Pierrot le Fou's side, and your argument is only based on not having the same background and sensitivities.
Japan is the way it is and there isn't much point in bitching about the small stuff because it isn't going to change. Instead of spending time analyzing all the little faults and trying to come up with over-arching theories about what these irritants said about Japanese society I realized it wasn't worth the bother and in fact was quite demeaning to Japanese people and I should just start concentrating on the things I like.
I think I understand very well Pierrot le Fou's comments, and if he thinks the way I do, then he is not really "bitching" about the system, but trying to disprove that "Japanese service is necessarily better" by finding examples of deficiencies. He is probably not very bothered by them. It's just irritating enough to be mentioned. But there is no country on earth where such small annoyances wouldn't happen, and I think he is trying to demonstrate that Japan is no exception. (am I right here, Pierrot le Fou ?)
Basically, you too have agreed with that, Senseiman, so there is no need for either of you to further this (personal) argument (and please stop changing people's usernames in your quotes, as I was wondering who fluffyhamster was).
Well, I will admit that many of your complaints are valid, and I have run into some of the same problems as you...the difference is that I made suggestions to the management, and they seem to have enjoyed it and decided to change the way that business was done.
The video store. I have used the bigger chain stores, but I find the neighborhood video stores more personable. I became quite frustrated with the return policy...having to wait. Then I suggested a drop box...at first they were against it, but I explained that this frees up the employees to do other things and makes things much easier for the customer. I even demonstrated with the manager by playing the employee and having her walk up to return the video...she changed things the next day!
As for finding videos? I think the reason that you find this easier in the States is because we are full of mindless fools that do nothing but watch movies and TV. I'm not positive, but are DVD's so popular anywhere else in the world...to the point where people own hundreds of movies just so that they can watch reruns of the same videos over and over instead of doing something creative with their time? (No offense Jeff!) I mean, I understand buying a movie that was just spectacular, or maybe a classic, but in the US people buy a DVD just because it came out on Tuesday and they wanted to be the 1st on their block to own it (for $19.95 no doubt). Only to see the same DVD in a yard sale 6 months later for $3! (excellent return on your investment!)
I will not comment on the pizza places since I rarely eat pizza out. (I can make a better pizza at home and usually cheaper!)
Tonight I had a pleasurable experience at a combini. As I payed for my purchase the attendant asked me (in broken English) what he should say when people enter or exit the store. I proceeded to give him a quick lesson. He was very appreciative, as this is a new store (Hot Spar) and is in a location to attract a lot of business from Westerners (mainly Americans).
I have to stop this post now...I realize it is being cut short, but I will have to finish later. :relief:
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